Oh, I remember now. I forgot you were at the 2nd Mountain thing. I was not in on that since I had to work on the days that was going on. I went back up there by myself to toss out Forest Service Mix about a week later.

I only remember seeing you at 1 FS meeting, though, up in Woodstock I think. I did not miss many of those from Woodstock to Lexington. I've been to every-single-one in Verona, 2 in Woodstock, and at least 3 in Lexington. I know I've been to at least 8, maybe more. Not sure how you could have been to "4 or 5" without me seeing you, but whatever. Final Draft meetings start in June, you going to be there?

And SV4W is not my club. I have not been a member for 5 or 6 years. I just host and administrator their web forum. I'm not a club type of person, but I will support clubs or organizations that try to make a difference in something I believe in. I.E., I'm a member of the Wild Turkey Federation, but I've never been Turkey hunting in my life (I've killed Turkey, but never hunted them); I'm a member of the Quality Deer Management Association, but I do not plant food plots or own land to manage deer; I've made donations to the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation but I do not have Diabetes, in fact in lieu of gifts for our wedding, Tami and I had donations go to the JDRF. If it's something I believe in I'll support it the best way I can. But I'm not really a club type of person.

For the record I "hid" you after your posts became obnoxious. I did not stop you from posting for most of that year, negative comments or otherwise. I was asked by numerous members to block you since you were not a club member. I still don't believe you bring anything useful to the club, as you are not a club guy- right?

I've explained this 100 times, but as we all know you have selective memory.

You hid my comments after the Eric May thread where he was accusing me of owing money to, and being banned from, Oak Ridge Estates. This is probably a rumor you started since you had mentioned it to me, without naming me by name, a year or so prior. You left Eric's comments up, but hid mine, until one day they all disappeared. The reason my comments were "obnoxious", as you say, is because after I posted emails from Heather at Oak Ridge Estates, and Chris Boucher from Trail Experience, claiming they've never heard of me and to their knowledge no one has ever been banned from the property, it made Eric out to look like an idiot. With Eric being a ROAV Board Director at the time, I'm sure you did have some requests to remove the thread.

As for me not being a club kind of person, you're right. I have explained this over-and-over again. I'm not a club person. But I am a person who sticks to their word. I told you, years ago, along with many others that I would re-join ROAV if John Tackley was kicked off the Board. When I learned that Tackley was kicked off the Board, I join ROAV within minutes.

I don't care about ROAV. ROAV can go belly-up tomorrow. I've told you this, too. But what I like about ROAV is MAR. I would like ROAV to get MAR back the way it was 4 or 5 years ago. If I have to join ROAV to attend MAR, whatever. But you know as well as I do MAR is not what it once was. Our group had over 40-people attend MAR for several years running. But it's no fun for us anymore and that sucks. I may be the only vocal one here, but there are 30 people in our group that have not attended MAR in 4 years, the 29 others gave up a long time ago. I'm not a club person, but MAR will never get back to where it once was when the hosting club can't get their shit together.

It's like I told Doug a few weeks ago when he mentioned the new land ROAV has available to them for MAR. He said trails needed to be cut and that he would be getting a group together to figure it all out. I told Doug I would volunteer to go along on at least one trip, but if it did not look promising that would be my last trip. But if it looked like a good property I would help the best I could. Here we are today, less than 4-months from MAR, and nothing has been done. It's like this every-single-year! So all indications are that MAR will suck again this year...

That was not the thread I was referring to. I deleted that one because the whole discussion had become infantile. That rumor did not come from me, Eric stated that Heather told him directly. When you called me about it I said I had heard it from more than one person but had not passed it on because when I asked Heather about it she said "she was not aware of it." Your deal to join if JT was gone was not a deal with me. I said if you want him gone come to the ABM. I guess you were too afraid, who knows.

If attendance is the barometer here, why is it that after all your bluster about ROAV, all the counter events, etc. that attendance is about the same or growing? You had how many trucks at your spring event? Then you came to the location Keeney and Christina had put together, where there were about 50 trucks.
You had more comments about the last few ROAV events than everyone else COMBINED on some forums, and still ROAV seems to get support.


the point is that people will come and go, people drop out, switch events and so on. The people who volunteer to help run the club will plan another MAR without worrying so much about you. No club will be everything to everyone, but ROAV has offered a little bit of evrything in the last two years. If it still does not meet your needs so be it. The vast majority of the community does not seem to care about your whining. People like Doug, or Ray Gerber, or Dan Rao or John Keeney decide they want to see things change and they join in and play a role without alienating so many people. Tami said it herself when we met right after I became president, the way you treat people works against you way more than it helps. My guess is that at some point you will rant your way right off of this board like you have in so many others.

ukoffroad wrote:

That was not the thread I was referring to.

I have no idea what you're talking about, then.

ukoffroad wrote:

I deleted that one because the whole discussion had become infantile.

That's not exactly right, Chuck. You only deleted my comments at first. You left Eric's comments up for about a week before John Keeney talked to you and then you removed the entire thread. You wanted to help Eric get the rumor going that I was banned and owed money to Oak Ridge Estates and that's the reason you left the conservation one sided. If that was not you intention you would have deleted the entire thread from the get-go. But you didn't. You claim to have even talked to Heater personally and knew that Eric was full of it, but you left his comments up any way.

ukoffroad wrote:

That rumor did not come from me, Eric stated that Heather told him directly. When you called me about it I said I had heard it from more than one person but had not passed it on because when I asked Heather about it she said "she was not aware of it."

So Eric May was the one spreading the rumor?

ukoffroad wrote:

Your deal to join if JT was gone was not a deal with me. I said if you want him gone come to the ABM. I guess you were too afraid, who knows.

It may not have been a hand-shake pinky swear deal with you, but you knew about it. You were sitting at the table when Christina was offering to pay my membership fee if I would join ROAV, and you heard my response. I repeated my response many times over the years, and I stood by what I said.

As for the ABM, why would I come to that? I'm not a club person so I don't see why you would think I would come to a club meeting. I'm not going to drive 2+ hours to eat a half-ass banquet style over-priced meal, voluntarily, and listen to a bunch of over-weight old men talk about what they did back in the 70's while they get hammered on Scotch. That's not my thing. Besides that, I was not even a member.

ukoffroad wrote:

If attendance is the barometer here, why is it that after all your bluster about ROAV, all the counter events, etc. that attendance is about the same or growing?

It's not growing, Chuck. It's sinking. Ever since 2004 ROAV membership has been sinking. It might have hit a low and is hanging out there, but do some statistics and see what percentage are "new" members and what percentage are "returning" members. I bet the "new" member percentage is pretty high. But your new members are not hanging around for very long. If they were, ROAV membership would be off the charts. Just look at the MAR issue of Christina's Box news letter and count the number of new memberships. That's a lot. Let's see how many of those return this year.

Want to talk about the Cove trip going on this weekend? How many were registered? I heard through the grapevine it was not many. Less than 10? 15? I bet it's not much as ROAV did a VERY poor job at promoting this. Horrible in fact.

ukoffroad wrote:

You had how many trucks at your spring event? Then you came to the location Keeney and Christina had put together, where there were about 50 trucks.

I don't have events. Why is everything an "event" with you? I go on rides or trips. Everything I do is not an "event".

I came to the Crabtree Falls area with about 5 trucks or so after I got off work that day. A few left before we drove the 1.5 hour trip to the area. We did this to laugh at you suckers who paid to go drive in the National Forest. We did it for free. Then we ate dinner at the Devils Backbone with some of the ROAV attendees and other friends who met us there.

ukoffroad wrote:

You had more comments about the last few ROAV events than everyone else COMBINED on some forums, and still ROAV seems to get support.

I'm sure ROAV gets support. If they didn't the club would have been belly-up before now. It's not the supporters who are killing the club, it's the Board of Directors. Just look at yourself for a minute; you're one of the guys who wasted all that money on an Insurance Policy that was not even valid for an LLC; you're partly responsible for the situation the books are in. The list goes on, Chuck. It's not the people, or members, who come to the ROAV events who are screwing the club, it's the people running it. The members have no clue as to what's going on because the Board does not tell the members.

ukoffroad wrote:

the point is that people will come and go, people drop out, switch events and so on. The people who volunteer to help run the club will plan another MAR without worrying so much about you. No club will be everything to everyone, but ROAV has offered a little bit of evrything in the last two years. If it still does not meet your needs so be it. The vast majority of the community does not seem to care about your whining. People like Doug, or Ray Gerber, or Dan Rao or John Keeney decide they want to see things change and they join in and play a role without alienating so many people.

That's great that these people do what they do. But even your narrow point-of-view will come into focus once the Board posts that recommendation from the accounting firm. That will be your report card, Chuck. We'll see how great of a job Chuck, Doug, Ray, Dan or John did.

ukoffroad wrote:

Tami said it herself when we met right after I became president, the way you treat people works against you way more than it helps. My guess is that at some point you will rant your way right off of this board like you have in so many others.

I read this to Tami and she says that she never said that, and if she did you took it out of context. So, try again, Chuck. At the end of the day I know what side she is on.

It seems you made my point for me. How soon before you have the most posts in a club forum for a non-club guy? They are not events is pure semantics. You got event insurance, right? She said it, Christina was there. Call her if you do not believe me. ( are you allowed to talk to her now?)

club membership was pretty low from 95 or so until around the mid 2000's when the MAR got way bigger than it ever needed to be. I would argue the 400+ rallies were an anomaly.

If the club grows, swell. If it does not, okay. With $4 a gallon gas among other things it is going to wax and wane. My goal was never to make ROAV the biggest. It happens that it was before I got involved, but whatever. My goal when I became president was to put on a variety of "events" or whatever you choose to call them from the hard (Crozet) to the easy and scenic. I wanted to rebuild the coffers. I accomplished both despite you. Christina and John and Dan R. added a fourth at the Cove, did a good job.

You will not be missed when you get angry and leave again.

And here I started this thread to promote an organization, which I am a member, who's goal it is to work on the off road situation in the state of Virginia. We got side tracked some place, which I helped, and are now talking about things that would be better off in a different forum group. Would it be possible to move this and then start its own thread? so that this trail ride could have a chance to be read for what it was intended to be about? A fun time in the beautiful county of Nelson at the trail guided Oak Ridge Estate. (no offense is implied or intended to any who have posted up on the other stuff talked about)

ukoffroad wrote:

It seems you made my point for me. How soon before you have the most posts in a club forum for a non-club guy?

What does post count have to do with anything?

ukoffroad wrote:

They are not events is pure semantics. You got event insurance, right?

I went to dinner this evening, would that be considered an event?

I go wheeling in the GWNF quite often. Each time I go, would that be considered an event?

I went camping last month down in Mississippi, is that considered an event?

As for the Insurance, you'll have to ask Garrett. I doubt it would be "event Insurance", though. He's probably just got a Commercial Liability policy with multiple Endorsements. But I'm guest guessing.

ukoffroad wrote:

She said it, Christina was there. Call her if you do not believe me.

Maybe she did? Although she says she did not, and I tend to believe what she says over your word, but whatever. I'm still here and she is still here. What I say does not seem to be hurting me too much. Then again, maybe you could enlighten us both and tell me how I'm hurting myself.

ukoffroad wrote:

( are you allowed to talk to her now?)

There you go, starting rumors again.

ukoffroad wrote:

club membership was pretty low from 95 or so until around the mid 2000's when the MAR got way bigger than it ever needed to be. I would argue the 400+ rallies were an anomaly.

Interesting. So what would you call it from 1975 to 1995?

ukoffroad wrote:

If the club grows, swell. If it does not, okay. With $4 a gallon gas among other things it is going to wax and wane.

LOL, what does gas prices have to do with anything? Gas prices are not affecting SCARR. Gas prices are not affecting the National Rally. Gas Prices are not affecting Big Bogs Productions. Why would the price of gasoline have anything to do club membership?

ukoffroad wrote:

My goal was never to make ROAV the biggest. It happens that it was before I got involved, but whatever. My goal when I became president was to put on a variety of "events" or whatever you choose to call them from the hard (Crozet) to the easy and scenic. I wanted to rebuild the coffers. I accomplished both despite you. Christina and John and Dan R. added a fourth at the Cove, did a good job.

I have seen zero evidence that you have made a single penny for ROAV. You keep claiming you did all these amazing things, but I have not seen anything yet.

What I have seen is where ROAV cashed in a $31,000 Certificate of Deposit just prior to you becoming President. But I have not seen where you have rebuilt anything, and I can guarantee you have not replaced that CD. I'm waiting, but it's just not happening.

ukoffroad wrote:

You will not be missed when you get angry and leave again.

There are two problems here, Chuck.
1) I'm not "angry". I've never been angry at you or anyone else in ROAV besides John Tackley. This stuff does not make me angry. It does disappoint me, though.
2) I have never left. Yes, I let my membership go in 2006 (although Paul Prosser apparently gave me a membership in 2007 due to a misunderstanding). But I've been here all along.

Tdi-Mike wrote:

And here I started this thread to promote an organization, which I am a member, who's goal it is to work on the off road situation in the state of Virginia. We got side tracked some place, which I helped, and are now talking about things that would be better off in a different forum group. Would it be possible to move this and then start its own thread? so that this trail ride could have a chance to be read for what it was intended to be about? A fun time in the beautiful county of Nelson at the trail guided Oak Ridge Estate. (no offense is implied or intended to any who have posted up on the other stuff talked about)

I'd like to hear your take on VA4WDA, Mike. Honestly.

The way I see VA4WDA is as a Club, not an Association trying to word towards a specific goal. I know VA4WDA has a Land Use Coordinator and I know Gregg means well and works hard. But really, what has VA4WDA done for Virginia Trails in the last 10 years? Do they have a Legislator of their own in Washington? Or do they just ride the shirt-tails of United?

You can call me if you rather, but I really would like to know your take on it.

[/quote] I'd like to hear your take on VA4WDA, Mike. Honestly.

The way I see VA4WDA is as a Club, not an Association trying to word towards a specific goal. I know VA4WDA has a Land Use Coordinator and I know Gregg means well and works hard. But really, what has VA4WDA done for Virginia Trails in the last 10 years? Do they have a Legislator of their own in Washington? Or do they just ride the shirt-tails of United?

You can call me if you rather, but I really would like to know your take on it.[/quote]

Dan, They will fail, with out a question, unless they get some support. I will take the chance that my $35.00 will help in some way. These are good people trying to do good things. Are they successful? You have mentioned Greg in plenty of your post doing good things on the trails in the name of VA4WDA. It is a start. Negativity will not make it better but help to make it less than what it could be. Personally I will give them that chance and the benefit of a doubt.

Tdi-Mike wrote:

Dan, They will fail, with out a question, unless they get some support. I will take the chance that my $35.00 will help in some way. These are good people trying to do good things. Are they successful? You have mentioned Greg in plenty of your post doing good things on the trails in the name of VA4WDA. It is a start. Negativity will not make it better but help to make it less than what it could be. Personally I will give them that chance and the benefit of a doubt.

I 100% understand what you're saying.

But do you find it discouraging when they take the money earned and apply it to expenses that are not associated with their Mission?

This is what I mean....

Lets say Daniel Chapman starts a Save The Children organization. It's a 501 (c)(3) non-for-profit and I'm all about saving the children. I have a website, I have a Mission telling everyone what I'm about and how passionate I am about saving children, I have stickers, I have a web forum, and I post news articles all day long about saving children.

As I start to grow people start joining me in my efforts to save the children. Some people volunteer, others just send me a check.

Once my membership has grown a little more, I start having rallies gathering even more support to save the children. I'll do 3 or 4 or 5 events a year, we'll all get together, pray to Jesus, and pass the collection plate around for dues and donations.

Lets say my origination has grown to hundreds of members across several States. The money is rolling in now. Dues, donations, sponsorships, we got magazines writing about us, we got other people buzzing about us online, in Church, at the 7-11....we got a good thing going. Everyone wants to save the children.

Then I go and take some of that money people have given me to support my cause of saving the children, and not only buy, but drain the bank account, on a tent rental so we can host another rally that will not generate even half of its expenses.

That's how I saw VA4WDA not too many years ago. The members come together to pay their dues and support saving Virginia trails. They pay a little additional to attend one of these rallies, not only to have fun, but to raise even more money to save Virginia trails. We talk about VA4WDA and how they are an Association dedicated to the greater good of OHV. We put their stickers on our trucks and proudly display them as if they're a trophy. We try to get our like-minded friends to come with us to VA4WDA events.

But despite all these efforts, we're not really saving the children or our trails. We're financing a hobby.

Look at the Philly Rovers. I know you've heard of them even though most have not. Others have this image of the Philly Rovers clan riding into a Rover event like a pack of Outlaws riding horseback into an old Western town with only one Saloon. The Philly Rovers are not a club, they're not an association or origination, and they're not a corporation. The Philly Rovers are just a select group of people who have things in common such as Land Rovers and decided to give themselves a name. There are no dues. There are no by-laws. There is no Mission and they're not out campaigning for lower gas prices or saving the earth.

When the Philly Rovers plan to attend an event, they take roll and see who's coming. Once they have a number, they divide equally what ever supplies will be needed to survive that weekend in traditional Philly Rover style. Everyone pays their share and that's it. No profit is made and no promises to save the bay have been broken.

VA4WDA, on the other hand, charges everyone a fee whether they're coming to an event or not. This lowers the cost for everyone attending. If a tent for dinner is going to cost $5,000, it's a lot less expensive per person to divide that expense over 300 rather than just 150. In fact, they might make money to support their Mission as stated in their Articles of Incorporation.

When that profit is seen as additional money left over to support the next event, that's when we go from an Association to a Club.

An Association would take any profits made at their fund raiser and apply it to their cause; a club will hold that money and apply it to the next event to make things, potentially, better.

That's why I question VA4WDA. There is a lot about VA4WDA that I do not know. I check their website from time-to-time, but there is little new information posted there other than when the next event is. Virginia trails keep disappearing, one-by-one, and I just found out yesterday that Kephart Run has now been gated at the road (it was gated about 4 miles away from the road).

I understand that Associations are going to fail. But at what point to you admit defeat and re-group?

That's why I asked you your opinion. We'll talk about it over a beer at Massaki next time. Then you can pay for my meal.

Dan, I agree with you in many ways except paying for your dinner at Massaki. Heck you are the rich one....

well , im sorry i brought up the VA thing, but thats what im accustomed too for the last 15yrs. im working on a joint US and THEM function for the future. i will keep you posted if anyone is willing ?

I have seen zero evidence that you have made a single penny for ROAV. You keep claiming you did all these amazing things, but I have not seen anything yet.

What I have seen is where ROAV cashed in a $31,000 Certificate of Deposit just prior to you becoming President. But I have not seen where you have rebuilt anything, and I can guarantee you have not replaced that CD. I'm waiting, but it's just not happening.

Just caught this gem. I did not claim to be amazing. Those documents were distributed to everyone who attended the ABM. IF the Current BOD is not sending them to you then take it up with them.

The CD was for one year I believe, and became due before the MAR- those were the bulk of the funds the club had. I was president in Februrary when the balance was less than 2k, but you know that already as well from our meeting. So, I started with 2k and we ended with around 15k. That was above what I had hoped for. the raffle and regalia sales from old stuff went way over expectations in 2009.

Did you pay taxes on sales, Chuck? Remember, you failed to file the paper work for your 501 (c), so you were operating as a LLC...you owe taxes. You have no idea if you "made" money or not. No clue at all.

Ouch!! How about them gems?