Let me apologize for the long post. You would be forgiven if you skipped to the last few paragraphs

OK, first to define my answer, let’s look at the condensed version of ROAV history.

The first meetings of the club were held (as I recall being told) in the basement of a Richmond hotel. Basically a small group of Rover owners sharing the company of their insanity. At this time both Rover cars and the Land Rover trucks were represented. Remember, this is 1974(?). Discovery is not exist even on paper, Range Rover won’t make it’s appearance on American soil until 1987, and the Rover Automotive Group has pulled out of the US market altogether. The formation of a support group at this time seems very appropriate.

After several years of these informal ‘pub meets’ if you will, one member offered the club to come spend the weekend at his small farm in Buckingham County. As they say, a great time was had by all, sharing their enthusiasm and experiences in the open air with a chance to play a little. Driving was not the focus of these events, by the way, but just a part of them. No one was injured in the log splitting contest or the feely-meely boxes, though sometimes the Rover trivia did induce a few headaches.

My first event was in 1996, the Mid Atlantic Rallye at Penlan Farm and featured an extraordinary driving event: A convoy of Rover’s (still some cars) traveling to the local drive-in movie theater for a private showing of “The God’s must be Crazy”. I could not believe there were actually 70 other nutters like myself who owned these quirky old vehicles. We were instantly hooked and some of my closest friendships have emerged from this same group of nutters. I have attended every MAR since without fail, even one year without a Rover!

I was fortunate enough to be asked to be vice president (I may never forgive Baron for that one), and consequently accepted several years as President and served on the Board of Directors until 2008. I have seen the club grow from the 70 or so members I first was amazed at to figures well over 300. I have also witnessed a lot of change in the club as time has gone on; some I do not agree with, all of it our own doing in one way or another.

The single largest motivator of the changes in ROAV has been the MAR. As Paul said, it was to many of us like Christmas each year. The BIG thing we looked forward to every year, the premier time for the club to have some fun and enjoy ourselves. The passion that surrounds the club drove us to achieve some great things, including drawing in the attention of a nearby landowner who granted us permission to expand our premier event on 400 acres of wooded terrain. Untold volunteer man hours and club funds and energy turned Pearl’s Pond into a varied array of trails and campgrounds to explore and enjoy. It seemed almost perfect. Almost. The popularity of the MAR soon spread, and much to our delight the event was attracting more and more ‘enthusiasts’ each year. Soon numbers over 200 were minimum, and approaching 400 vehicles and over 800 people was a reality. The variety of vehicles available was astounding, all variants, all types of modifications from offroad improvements to built in blenders for camping socials.

What, in my opinion, we did not foresee was that the popularity of the event drew in a different enthusiast we did not see coming. To these people it seemed the only draw of the Rover Marque was the MAR. We had for years run the event so that the property was open for all to enjoy throughout the event. This meant all hours of the day and night. To this ‘other enthusiast’ the MAR was an opportunity to hit the trails at anytime in anyway they wanted. They hit the event hard. With older Range Rovers and Discoverys able to be purchased for the same money as a rusted out Blazer or 4WD pickup, the MAR was a cheap date they could use. No planning in modifications, just bigger tires and more right foot. No consideration for others at the event, on the trails or in the campgrounds. People in the way, go around them. Trying to sleep? Should have stayed at the motel.

Yes, these were a minority. However, the actions of the few can drastically affect the many. The focus had shifted from an enthusiast event that offered some offroading, to a dramtically different offroad event that tolerated the enthusiasts.

Now, don’t get me wrong, you all know I am an offroader myself and enjoy a great event. However, this is not the reason I joined ROAV, and not the reason that the club still has members active that were there in the basement in 1974.

ROAV was established as an enthusiasts club, a club celebrating the Rover marque. Land Rover has always been the dominant theme, but the current club directors need to keep in mind that Land Rover is much, much more than offroad. Anyone who has attended car events can attest that no other vehicle offers the diversity of the Land Rover. Literally, no 2 are alike. It is the capabilities of the vehicle that have allowed the versatility, the ultimate world wide adaptability of the Land Rover, but it is the heart and passion of the owners, the draw to this most capable and versatile of vehicles that should be the driving force behind ROAV. ROAV should not become an offroad club, it should remain an enthusiasts club, celebrating the diversity of the Land Rover.

There is a lot of truth in the statement from Paul “where MAR goes, there goes ROAV”. To many the 2 have become synonymous. Because of this, I would like to make a suggestion to the current governing body of ROAV:

I would suggest that the MAR should be allowed to be it’s own event. By this I mean it should become legally it’s own entity - SEPARATE from ROAV. This does not mean that ROAV should simply cast the MAR out on the street and say “good luck!”, but perhaps rather agree to sponsor the MAR with the help of others. Those already familiar with the processes of the event would be likely candidates for the directors of the MAR, for instance.

I strongly believe that if ROAV and the MAR separate their identities, they can each continue to grow and thrive. In my opinion, if the two remain Siamesed neither will be able to survive. This is a serious turning point for ROAV and this decision should not be taken lightly. This decision can not be allowed to ‘die by committee’ either. It needs to be acted upon.

Thank you again for the opportunity to let us, the club members, voice our opinions.

Right, I agree, it's an enthusiast club, not an off road club, that's why I joined. There are plenty of local off road clubs, I want to be surrounded by Land Rovers and their people! And if there's some off road enjoyment at the same time that's even better. Sitting at a table with a beer and talking about them among other things is also part of it. Spending an evening cooking out at someone's place, riding out on local trails, picking up trash...Like Mike said, MAR is an event, not the family. I hope to see more come from his ideas.

Mike, well said. You remind us of some great points and bring up some good ideas. Thank you for all that you have done for the club.

I do believe, however, that ROAV can do both, old and new, if MAR is modified a bit. I think the problem, in the past, with the MAR, was how it was presented. Even if that was by accident or took it on by itself. I do not think ROAV will survive in its current condition, with its diversity, with out a MAR. I think we have lost some of that diversity, for good and bad, in the last few years. Control is the key to keeping the MAR what we want it to be.
Look at how much money can be obtained from a MAR. If the club wants to do other things, that cost money, MAR may be the answer. With all of that said the BOD will have to get help to pull this off. Communication will be the key. We are a spread out group now living in many States. Not all can come to a Meeting in Richmond. So communication here, on the web, may be the thing to do. (like this thread)
The last....If the BOD decides to change the venue of the MAR, and has options, I think that the members, all of them, should have a say. The same is true for a drastic change in what the MAR is or isn't. This does not mean a meeting in Richmond. I know a mailing would be expensive but I think my yearly dues more than pays for the postage.

"If ROAV would make a commitment to helping with some of the trails they use, I would reconsider, but as Chuck said, there is no interest here."

To be clear, I cannot speak for every member of the club. I know Jeff has been part of a few things. I just found that the year I was involved there was no sense that other members wanted to be part of it other than to say they support it. If this has changed then there is potential for doing something again. Walter, if you would like we can talk about it, the position is still open.

I said previously that I agreed with Paul's statement that, "ROAV is MAR and MAR is ROAV"...here's why...(skip to bottom of this post for the bottom line, so-to-speak).

ROAV survived from its incorporation in '75 to '95 only because of Sandy Grice's efforts. There were precious few gatherings other than the annual meeting at a yacht club in Tidewater. Sandy sent out at least one ROAV Gearbox newsletter each year, and he kept up with the SCC annual filings. That's nearly all that ROAV was for 20 years.

In '95 I attended my 1st MAR at McMike's Penlan Farm, after reading coverage in the RTD of the '94 MAR. I was both impressed and hooked!

IMHO, MAR's far-&-away finest MAR event was the '96 caravan to the Fork Union Drive-In to view the "Gods Must Be Crazy". Pics from that event are priceless, (got any?) with Land Rovers of nearly every year parked in rows, filling up the theater's car-park...and it did not even involve driving off-road...but I'm diverging a bit from the topic at hand.

Purely by accident, the club leadership discovered that a simple gathering of friends on a member's farm, if advertised in advance, could attract other LR Owners that they had never met. Then they discovered that those LROs would happily pay to attend a weekend long celebration of Land Rover. MAR could make money.

And it continued to make money every year, and so was expanded eventually to 4 days and ever larger venues...and all this was done by merely a very few dedicated, long-time members, who became the de-facto club leadership, serving in various BOD & Officer positions, and swapping leadership seats every year or so. I was lucky to get nominated/elected into this group as a BOD simply by attending the annual meeting in the late 90s.

By 2002, give-or-take a year or so, membership swelled to 350+ members, and MAR registration topped 500 trucks purely due to the MAR's
recognition by the WORLD's LR community as a premier LR event bar-none, anywhere in the WORLD. MAR had become the very essence of ROAV, not as an intended outcome, but in a defacto manner, simply because it became so well-known and popular. I attribute this to the rise of, and easy accessibility of, electronic communications via the Internet.

Pride is one of the 7 ugly sins. The pride of ROAV's leadership, still a small number of mostly the same usual suspects, grew as MAR grew...and justly so. However, this pride turned ugly with the Oak Ridge MAR. ROAV's coffers swelled to over $40k before that event. solely due to retained earnings from a decade of MAR. Pride made ROAV's leaders lose site of the high cost associated with the choice of Oak Ridge for the MAR venue, a choice forced by the unfortunate loss of over a decade's use of Pearl's Pond as MAR's home. The rest of the story is well known. ROAV's leadership was literally shocked that only about $1200 remained in the coffers after all the Oak Ridge MAR expenses were paid. We should NOT have been shocked, we should have known in advance, but we did not. This has forced a fundamental change in ROAV. It WILL NOT happen again. Policies are being changed and created to insure both the fiscal responsibility of ROAV's BODs and Officers, and fiscal transparency to ROAV's members.


That was a watershed moment in ROAV's history. The leaders realized what had happened, without any ill intent, but it HAD happened, ROAV was all-but-bankrupt!

After much anguish, some of those leaders decided to stop crying in their beer and get up and re-build ROAV, which meant re-building MAR. You can thank the 2009 BOD, Officers (some experienced, some new) and many volunteer members for the continued existence of ROAV itself!

Now, Airy Hill was a pretty good MAR, but it was doomed as a future MAR venue by the Caroline County leadership, who wanted to change the farm's zoning because of MAR...absurd, yes...but we could not blame the farm's owners for bidding ROAV a fond good-bye.

ROAV leaders continue to seek a new MAR venue. If you think that task is not difficult and time-consuming, think again. A ROAV BOD has located a willing property owner, with a simply breath-taking venue, with whom we are currently negotiating a lease contract, after 4 BODs visited the property on 5/8 to assess it as a potential MAR venue. If successful, club members will have to chime in on likes dislikes, but only after experiencing it. I can tell you it is back in Buckingham County and it is not Pearl's Pond.

There is simply no point, and not enough time, to seeking member opinions of a site that has not been seen...you will just have to accept that the current ROAV leadership is making decisions that represent the majority of ROAV's members. We are, after all, the member's elected BODs and can be voted in or out.

One last point...The requirement that MAR attendees be ROAV members was required by our insurance carrier, as it is more difficult for a member to sue his own club, as he would be sueing himself!

So, with all due repect to MikeM, I personally don't think it is realistic to separate ROAV from MAR and have an expectation that both will flourish.

I will not argue that to many people in and outside of the club the terms MAR and ROAV have become synonymous. The event was a creation of ROAV and will always be so. This statement also leads to my viewpoint: The MAR has now grown to the point where it has been consuming ROAV, taking over the enthusiast club if by no other virtue than depletion of energy and resources required for other activities. The bigger the MAR becomes the more ROAV loses its club identity. The event is just that, an event and the club needs to be a club. ROAV should not be an event, but unfortunately for several years now that is just what has happened.

I will also agree that if ROAV club membership is no longer required to be a participant in the MAR, then ROAV club membership will certainly decline. This should be viewed in the positive, since many people were ‘forced’ to join who had no real interest in ROAV the club, only in MAR the event. It is also certain that ROAV club membership will level out to a true population which I’m sure will be more than just a handful. There is currently little to no member ‘ownership’ in ROAV and we need this back to be successful as a club.

JT noted one very poignant fact that I did not include: Club membership was required to participate in the MAR, driven primarily by insurance. If you are about to say “call around”, I would offer you to do just that. Mention a vehicle driving related club sponsored event and you lose virtually all options in insurers. Those that do consider it have, in my experience, all required club membership for participants. Would this make separating MAR from ROAV harder? Maybe, but if the MAR is legally established as it’s own entity, then insurance would actually fall closer to that required for more common events, so maybe not. The other legal advantage we should not forget is that if the MAR is separate from ROAV any litigious actions against the MAR are that much more legally separated from ROAV. Sorry to bring this up, but the probability of injury or death as the MAR currently exists (open unrestricted, unmonitored driving-day and night) is, in my opinion, very high. If such an unfortunate situation were to arrive now, ROAV will certainly cease to exist.

Please do not misinterpret my meaning. ROAV is and should be an enthusiasts club. MAR is and should be an offroad event. ROAV is not MAR. These are 2 distinct and different entities that would, in my opinion, prosper greatly in some separation. Without the MAR occupying 90% of the club board meetings, more could be accomplished on club items like the Gearbox (well done recently, BTW), technical meetings, social meetings, and yes, even some giving back through land use issues. Given freedom from the operation of club functions, the MAR board meetings could focus entirely on the success of the event.

To more directly answer Chuck’s initial questions:
I see ROAV as an enthusiasts club, and I joined because of the super cool people who found some common passion in a quirky old box of English aluminum. I would like to see more club activities like garage sessions (I would love to help put on, but don’t have a location) and pub / social meets. Maybe even a swap meet? Lets get back to being a club.

Again, thank you for your time and attention.

As far as the insurance question goes the ROAV may want to look into the advantages of becoming a full member of the UFWDA/SFWDA. The event insurance is available at a very favorable rate for its members.

That's how Solaros has handled the insurance requirements for our annual SAE event for years. We looked at other policies and found that the cost of joining the SFWDA was more than offset by the savings in insurance.

As a ROAV member and a MAR participant since the Penlan Farm days I hope that ROAV will continue to host the MAR at a suitable location somewhere in central Virginia. I have had a good time at every MAR I've attended (even the rainy ones) and I too would like to see a return to the earlier style event that was more focused on the cars and the people. I also realize that I'm in the minority and that the MAR attendees have come to expect more of an off road event than a social gathering.

The task of the ROAV board will be to reconcile these two views and come up with a good compromise event that will mirror the early days of Pearls Pond. Our fall event has evolved into a camping and social event where we also have the Beasley Knob ORV area about 16 miles away for the true off road enthusiasts. For those whose tastes run to milder stuff there are hundreds of miles of Forest Service roads to explore. It works for us and we have a good time.

Thanks for the comments so far. I will say that of all the folks I talked to last year, MAR was the central part of ROAV for them. They were more interested in the camaraderie than anything, but they wanted a healthy mix of trails, vendors and scenery. Last year we held three events in an effort to meet the needs of everyone, from rockcrawling at Crozet to scenic easy stuff at Mountain Lake, to mud about everywhere. I will look into the insurance with United. We currently use K&K, and while it is not mandatory they said having participants be active members of the club helps to protect everyone. In the last couple of years, Christina has mailed every person who joined ROAV outside of the MAR itself a packet, and I think it is important to keep that going. Every person who came to MAR got hats and other stuff from LRNA free. We have several sponsors donating swag to the spring rally this month as well.

I am not sure I would have ever found ROAV without the MAR. I do see MAR as ROAV’s signature event, intended or not . . . it sure happened. Some may feel ROAV is not MAR but folks sure put the two together I know I do. I think ROAV and the MAR are locked in a dance - - sounds like a few of you are ready for a new dance partner but I think she’s still got the moves. I say we spice it up, try a new dress, and make-up before we send her down the road.

Within the context of MAR I think some of the enthusiast pieces should be enhanced and become more a part of the MAR event. Mike, remember the Aluminum Man Challenge, Venders row, RTV driving course, Slow Race, Novice guided trail rides, Teeter Totter event (remember when Joe Saunders balanced his truck and how surprised he was it balanced) and even if it was never advertised as such, remember the rows of clean trucks just sitting along the entrance road @ Pearls for us to look and drool over – it was an informal Show-n-Shine. MAR had all these things - - ROAV catered, knowingly or not, to ALL it members through the MAR event. I would agree that more reently it has become more of a wheels event.

I believe MAR can have it all again and thus ROAV can too. I fear a separation of MAR from ROAV would weaken ROAV and it would just become a much smaller enthusiast club. Is that the outcome that is desired? I believe MAR can cater to all groups in our club. My feeling is that MAR brings new folks into the club. MAR is the moneymaker so the club can do other things. I agree that 90% of the clubs time on MAR is a lot but MAR is the big pay-off. Mike, I think you have concerns that need to be addressed. It seems to me with the smart, well accomplished, folks in the club and all those connections we would, if we pooled resources and are willing, find solutions to these issues.

I do not pretend to know the law and insurance but these are the obstacles we need to confront, discuss, and work together to resolve. A few reckless individuals should not be allowed to hold ROAV and the MAR event hostage. If recklessness and disregard for trail safety by a few are the main issues with MAR - - we need to educate and be willing to ask folks to leave. We need to lie out Trail Lightly or ROAV’s expectation for trail conduct during MAR. Maybe we move to mandatory educational drivers and safety meetings before folks can go on the trails. I don’t know how this would impact insurance or limit litigation but it is something we should consider if recklessness and liability is the key issue with the MAR event. Will this prevent a drunk from going out in the middle of the night to wheel – no but would the club really be held responsible for that? Could we off limits after X hour the trails or gate the trailheads after X time at night would this help?

I've not been around as long as some and maybe by some in the club I am even seen as part of the problem. I’d like to think not. I make no apologies that do love to wheel my Red Rover. I like to think that I wheel in a way that is appropriate but I am sure I am guilty of some infractions that fall on the less civilized side of wheeling. That said I am very cognizant of the fact that I want to make sure ALL have a good time on the trail. We helped countless folks, repaired many trucks, taken new folks out, offer suggestions and ideas to those who requested. When cutting trails this past year at Airy Hill, in my mind, I went out of my way to discuss with Ray, Chuck, and others the needs of some ROAV members for “damage free” trail riding. Places to drive without getting scratches and the like. Chuck and Ray did set us out to make some more difficult trails and I think we accomplished that goal within the limited time we had. I stand ready to help again as much as the schedule will allow once a location is identified.

I would like to find the balance. ROAV should be an enthusiast club within that context ROAV should also be a wheels club that sponsors MAR. Why separate or remove the most successful piece, why not work find ways to work through the concerns that will satisfy insurance and limit the liabilities of the MAR to ROAV?
respectfully,
Paul

I think everything will work out fine, Paul. I pretty much agree with you. We can find the balance. I think this year should show that we are willing to do just that.

Best,

Eric

thanks to those who gave me thier thoughts at the Spring Rally, and another topic came up- A section for members vehicles, with set up and pics? Maybe a section on the forum, so if you are looking at changes for your DII or LR3, etc, you can see what others have done, get feedback on what differences it made, etc.

Also, we are working on the next Gearbox, so any photos would be greatly welcomed.

Oooh, yes, a section for seeing mods and hearing how they worked out for others would be nice.
It's nice to read all these posts and hear the passion for the club and for MAR and to make both the best they can be. Wonderful ideas!
I thought at first MAR and ROAV should be separated, then as I read and learned more about both, I can see the advantage of keeping them together, especially for ROAV. I don't like the fact that it takes so much time and energy away from other events, other meetings, or even the time one might have to think of new ideas and new events. Everybody wants this and that and more time from each member to pick up trash or plan a little event. I think a committee should be devoted to MAR. So others can focus on growth in other and new areas. The experienced MAR members would be great for that. I don't like thinking it might limit the club by taking up so much time and energy. Delegate responsibilities. You...report on MAR. You...new event planner. You...trail clean ups. You...social events.
??? Kind of separate MAR but not as it's own entity. Maybe I'm way off, but I appreciate the opportunity to share my feelings and thoughts and hear others'.
Thanks